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An Obama chronology

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Re: An Obama chronology

Postby Texas Lynn » February 22nd, 2011, 6:34 pm

Intelligent Design wrote:I don't see it as a new beginning. I see it as a reenstallment of the Republic.

Can't move forward into socialism the people have clearly see the left of the left and they don't care for it.

They wont trust the Republicans after they retake the Whitehouse and Congress, the pain felt will be blamed on both sides and rightly so.

As I see it we will Fall back into the Republic. I have "Hope" for this "Change."


I honestly don't get this mindset you express. I suspect you are one of those who favors return to Senators being selected by state legislators.
You may not use me as your factory.
Priests and legislators do not hold
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This is my body. If I give it to you
I want it back. My life
is a non-negotiable demand.

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Re: An Obama chronology

Postby Intelligent Design » February 22nd, 2011, 10:49 pm

Texas Lynn wrote:
Intelligent Design wrote:I don't see it as a new beginning. I see it as a reenstallment of the Republic.

Can't move forward into socialism the people have clearly see the left of the left and they don't care for it.

They wont trust the Republicans after they retake the Whitehouse and Congress, the pain felt will be blamed on both sides and rightly so.

As I see it we will Fall back into the Republic. I have "Hope" for this "Change."


I honestly don't get this mindset you express. I suspect you are one of those who favors return to Senators being selected by state legislators.


Look at the Constitution and note the year 1913. I see no difference between the Prez at that time and you, none at all.
The Constitution is controled anarchy, just barely, as was the intent of our Founders.

You don't have a soul, you are a soul. You have a body.C.S. Lewis

Statutum tempus Lex of Deus est a Donum. Donum attero nisi a speculum of lex of Deus, in terra
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Re: An Obama chronology

Postby Texas Lynn » February 24th, 2011, 2:43 pm

Intelligent Design wrote:
Texas Lynn wrote:
Intelligent Design wrote:I don't see it as a new beginning. I see it as a reenstallment of the Republic.

Can't move forward into socialism the people have clearly see the left of the left and they don't care for it.

They wont trust the Republicans after they retake the Whitehouse and Congress, the pain felt will be blamed on both sides and rightly so.

As I see it we will Fall back into the Republic. I have "Hope" for this "Change."


I honestly don't get this mindset you express. I suspect you are one of those who favors return to Senators being selected by state legislators.


Look at the Constitution and note the year 1913. I see no difference between the Prez at that time and you, none at all.


Wilson or Taft? I'm not male and not rich but they are both among our fifteen greatest Presidents at least. Taft certainly more so than Wilson. Still Wilson shook America awake as an international player and that counts for a lot. He knew the whole bag of "rugged individualism" maudlin shibboleths was a bag of heiferdust.
You may not use me as your factory.
Priests and legislators do not hold
shares in my womb or my mind.
This is my body. If I give it to you
I want it back. My life
is a non-negotiable demand.

Marge Piercy
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Location: Brooklyn NY

Re: An Obama chronology

Postby davehines » February 24th, 2011, 3:17 pm

Texas Lynn wrote:Taft certainly more so than Wilson. Still Wilson shook America awake as an international player and that counts for a lot.


Even if you consider spending a bundle to be the world's policeman to be a great accomplishment, it is insufficient to compensate for what Wilson himself admitted was the ruination of his country -- signing the Federal Reserve into existence.

What did Wilson accomplish in his international playpen? A continuation of war when both sides were already exhausted and inclined to negotiate a settlement. An unbalancing of the eventual settlement, leading to the rise of Hitler and another world war. Invasion of Russia after the war, putting the new communist system on a militaristic course that would lead to a Cold War.

Great stuff, eh?
It is in the popularity of the pursuit of Utopia that the aggrandizers of state power find their most effective ally.

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Re: An Obama chronology

Postby Texas Lynn » February 24th, 2011, 5:58 pm

davehines wrote:
Texas Lynn wrote:Taft certainly more so than Wilson. Still Wilson shook America awake as an international player and that counts for a lot.


Even if you consider spending a bundle to be the world's policeman to be a great accomplishment, it is insufficient to compensate for what Wilson himself admitted was the ruination of his country -- signing the Federal Reserve into existence.

What did Wilson accomplish in his international playpen? A continuation of war when both sides were already exhausted and inclined to negotiate a settlement. An unbalancing of the eventual settlement, leading to the rise of Hitler and another world war. Invasion of Russia after the war, putting the new communist system on a militaristic course that would lead to a Cold War.

Great stuff, eh?


eh. Nobody's perfect. I don't like the fed, but I don't like its critics like Ron Paul more. I think the fed would be great if Obama would put Bill Ayres and Michael Moore on the Board of Governors, but you know and I know that ain't happening.
You may not use me as your factory.
Priests and legislators do not hold
shares in my womb or my mind.
This is my body. If I give it to you
I want it back. My life
is a non-negotiable demand.

Marge Piercy
Texas Lynn
 
Posts: 13
Joined: February 9th, 2011, 1:26 pm
Location: Brooklyn NY

Re: An Obama chronology

Postby Intelligent Design » February 24th, 2011, 6:13 pm

Intelligent Design wrote:
Texas Lynn wrote:
Intelligent Design wrote:I don't see it as a new beginning. I see it as a reenstallment of the Republic.

Can't move forward into socialism the people have clearly see the left of the left and they don't care for it.

They wont trust the Republicans after they retake the Whitehouse and Congress, the pain felt will be blamed on both sides and rightly so.

As I see it we will Fall back into the Republic. I have "Hope" for this "Change."


I honestly don't get this mindset you express. I suspect you are one of those who favors return to Senators being selected by state legislators.


Look at the Constitution and note the year 1913. I see no difference between the Prez at that time and you, none at all.


Texas Lynn wrote:Wilson or Taft?


Wilson


Texas Lynn wrote: I'm not male and not rich but they are both among our fifteen greatest Presidents at least.


You have told me before you have a wife. Lier.

Texas Lynn wrote: Taft certainly more so than Wilson.


Taft, Roosevelt, Wilson, all peas in the same pod. Taft hide behind his wifes skirt and his wifes skirt did him well politicaly. He was called the " The Constitution's Bodyguard" when in fact he was more of an imperialist when political ambition came to play. Ted Roosevelt gave him the job in the Philippines, Roosevelt, progressive.

Texas Lynn wrote:Still Wilson shook America awake as an international player and that counts for a lot. He knew the whole bag of "rugged individualism" maudlin shibboleths was a bag of heiferdust.


If I had understood a damn word you said I might have commented. Never the less, Wilson, a progressive told America we would never get into WWI and after taking office a VERY short time we was in WWI. So, he too is a lier.

Social Justice along with Democracy is and has always been doomed to fail.
The Constitution is controled anarchy, just barely, as was the intent of our Founders.

You don't have a soul, you are a soul. You have a body.C.S. Lewis

Statutum tempus Lex of Deus est a Donum. Donum attero nisi a speculum of lex of Deus, in terra
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Re: An Obama chronology

Postby davehines » February 24th, 2011, 7:52 pm

Texas Lynn wrote:eh. Nobody's perfect.


Perfection isn't the issue. You declared Wilson great for setting up an international playpen. I pointed out the results -- decades of death, destruction, tyranny, and nuclear anxiety vis a vis the Soviet Union.

I don't like the fed, but I don't like its critics like Ron Paul more. I think the fed would be great if Obama would put Bill Ayres and Michael Moore on the Board of Governors, but you know and I know that ain't happening.


:???: This is very odd. You don't like the Fed, but like it more because of who its critics are. You believe that the Fed would be a wonderful institution if people ignorant of economics were put in charge of it. A filmmaker and a fugitive educator are the best-qualified persons to determine how our monetary and banking systems shall be run.

Hate to say it, Lynn, but you're losing more credibility with me all the time. I had hoped that you could discuss liberal/progressive views in some rational and coherent manner -- the conservative establishment certainly has its flaws and blind spots -- but I'm not seeing it. Perhaps it's too much to expect from modern-day liberals.
It is in the popularity of the pursuit of Utopia that the aggrandizers of state power find their most effective ally.

-- Dennis Wilson Brogan
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Re: An Obama chronology

Postby Texas Lynn » February 25th, 2011, 2:40 pm

davehines: You declared Wilson great for setting up an international playpen. I pointed out the results -- decades of death, destruction, tyranny, and nuclear anxiety vis a vis the Soviet Union.

-----as opposed to....isolationism and American-firstism.

DH: You don't like the Fed, but like it more because of who its critics are.

-----that is not what i said at all. I said I do not like its critics more than I do not like it. That is a reasonable position.

You believe that the Fed would be a wonderful institution if people ignorant of economics were put in charge of it. A filmmaker and a fugitive educator are the best-qualified persons to determine how our monetary and banking systems shall be run.


I run a nonprofit with a board of 12. Four are professionals, four are fundraisers, and four are community activists. Maybe if more banks were operated in such a manner as is taught in graduate schools of social work (to make your boards 1/3 professionals, 1/3 fundraisers, and 1/3 consumers and community activists) they wouldn't be in the trouble they're in now. Corporate boards are pretty much 90% plutocrats and 10% celebs like former Senators and such who sell their good names for the board member's salary.

Hate to say it, Lynn, but you're losing more credibility with me all the time. I had hoped that you could discuss liberal/progressive views in some rational and coherent manner -- the conservative establishment certainly has its flaws and blind spots -- but I'm not seeing it. Perhaps it's too much to expect from modern-day liberals.


I don't expect to have "credibility" with persons of opposing views. All you've done is defend plutocracy. That's not "credible" so much as it is expected.
You may not use me as your factory.
Priests and legislators do not hold
shares in my womb or my mind.
This is my body. If I give it to you
I want it back. My life
is a non-negotiable demand.

Marge Piercy
Texas Lynn
 
Posts: 13
Joined: February 9th, 2011, 1:26 pm
Location: Brooklyn NY

Re: An Obama chronology

Postby davehines » February 25th, 2011, 4:51 pm

Texas Lynn wrote:davehines: You declared Wilson great for setting up an international playpen. I pointed out the results -- decades of death, destruction, tyranny, and nuclear anxiety vis a vis the Soviet Union.

-----as opposed to....isolationism and American-firstism.


So death, destruction, and an arms race producing enough nuclear bombs to destroy the world several times over are acceptable costs for avoiding "isolationism and American-firstism"?

"Isolationism" is a charge that assumes an avoidance of contact with the wider world. It ignores a lot of contact, e.g., trade, diplomacy, etc. It assumes that one can avoid being an isolationist only if one is enthgused about bombing and shooting others with scant reason. If you call that unwillingness isolationism, then I'm an isolationist. I don't desire to point guns at you to tell you how to run your sex life, nor point them at others to make them do as our politicians demand. The Constitution does not give those politicians authority over anyone else's land and government; they have their hands full with ours.

"American-firstism" sounds a lot like "Democratic-firstism". Is it not the nature of humanity to put the interests of oneself and one's family before the arbitrary interests of strangers? You argue against human nature, believing perhaps that it can be altered by legislative or executive fiat. Unless the Executive is God, that ain't gonna happen.

If we can't take care of ourselves, how could we possibly help somebody else? Your imagined altruism is unfeasible on the face of it. We are trillions in debt, yet we put others first, I guess, sending a billion and a half to Mubarak, billions to Iraq and Afghanistan... There is something psychologically pathological about this, though you seem to think such insanity preferable to "isolationism and American-firstism".

DH: You don't like the Fed, but like it more because of who its critics are.

-----that is not what i said at all. I said I do not like its critics more than I do not like it. That is a reasonable position.


Fair enough. What, then, do you have personally against Ron Paul? You said you don't like him; you didn't refer to his positions. What is your personal beef with the doctor?

I run a nonprofit with a board of 12. Four are professionals, four are fundraisers, and four are community activists. Maybe if more banks were operated in such a manner as is taught in graduate schools of social work (to make your boards 1/3 professionals, 1/3 fundraisers, and 1/3 consumers and community activists) they wouldn't be in the trouble they're in now.


A bank is not a nonprofit. Run it like one, and you create problems. That was part of the recent crash. Government meddling in banking, attempting to turn them into ersatz nonprofits; measures as the CRA led to the writing of a whole bunch of shaky loans.

The bank is not there to be a fundraiser or a community activist; it's there to ensure that my money is safe. Conflating a whole bunch of tasks within an entity ensures that none of them are done well.

Corporate boards are pretty much 90% plutocrats and 10% celebs like former Senators and such who sell their good names for the board member's salary.


That would make those former Senators plutocrats as well, wouldn't it?

Plutocracy cannot happen without complicity of government. That's what the "-crat" part means. We do have plutocracy; that tendency has never been entirely absent from our system, but it has become ever more ubiquitous over the last century. Why? Because people have accepted the notion that it's government's business to manage the economy.

The Fed's job is to print fiat money. It is an utterly senseless exercise from the outset -- unless one is a plutocrat.

Real money is democratic money. The holder of real money gets a vote every day -- Spend or save? Spend on what product or service? If one saves, the money doesn't become worth less. The consumer rewards those companies that produce things she chooses to spend upon, inducing sellers to cater to her interests.

Fiat money is undemocratic. One is induced to spend rather than save, since the money is guaranteed to lose its value. The consumer is no longer in charge, since those goods on which government spends money become highly inflated in price, drawing businesses not into producing what she wants, but rather into the fiat-money-created bubble. That bubble is guaranteed to pop at some point, leaving everyone worse off than they were before. That popping is what we saw in 2008.

Bill Ayers and Michael Moore, were they appointed to the Fed, would become plutocrats by definition. They would be ruling through money -- exactly as Bernanke currently does. It matters not to the definition whether they support your desired community activism; they are reducing the democracy of real money and consumer choice.

BTW, you already have the system you say you want. The Fed Board of Governors are selected by the POTUS, as is the Chariman himself. The regional Feds;s boards are appointed in three categories: 1/3 chosen by the member banks; 1?3 are chosen by the banks supposedly to represnet community interests; 1/3 are chosen by the Fed Board of Governors in DC. They seem to do your system one better -- a third of each regional bank represents community interests, and another third are chosen to represent public interests by those altruistic government officials in DC.

That would make 2/3 rather than your proposed 1/3 -- plus the entire Board of Governors in DC -- theoretically acting on behalf of the people. So why isn't this the utopian banking system you say would happen?!

Democrats as well as Republicans have empowered corporate dominance of government. There's no way around it -- if you want the government controlling the economy, for whatever purpose, the government will be in bed with chosen corporations.

Obama brags about the subsidies he's provided to selected corporations. Whereas before the crash Dems were complaining about rich people spending on luxury items, afterwards they complianed about rich people not spending on luxury items, since it meant fewer jobs for the providers of those goods. Why can't they make up their minds?!

I don't expect to have "credibility" with persons of opposing views.


Yet you could -- not with all -- some who oppose your opinions are as adamant about the automatic ad hominem as leftist are -- but with some. You could employ sound logic to defend your positions, instead of tautology. You could ditch the ridiculous notion that no matter what the issue, racism is the cause of any opposition. You could address reasoned objections to your positions.

There are a few on the left who do have credibility: Nat Hentoff; Juan Williams; Glenn Greenwald (left-libertarian); Ralph Nader (extreme socialist left); and some others. I disagree with most of these gentlemen on the issues (not so much Greenwald) yet they present their positions clearly, and address objections with some clarity. They tend to exude sincerity, instead of resorting to the ad hominem at every opportunity. They don't resort to "racism" as the explanation for any disagreement. They have examined opposing opinions for content; they find them wanting, and say why.

Employing tautology and misdirections such as "racism" and "greed" merely demonstrate how weak a person's position really is. Those with credibility find better ways to disagree. Merely pointing out how bad the other guy is does nothing to enamor a thoughtful person with the desirablity of one's position.

All you've done is defend plutocracy.


I believe that I've shown above that it is you, as well as the neo-cons, who defend plutocracy. In the name of achieving purported anti-plutocratic goals you support politicians bedding selected corporations, and printing fiat money to the detriment especially of the poorest among us.
It is in the popularity of the pursuit of Utopia that the aggrandizers of state power find their most effective ally.

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Re: An Obama chronology

Postby Intelligent Design » March 14th, 2011, 5:52 pm

Other then trade what's wrong with "isolationism and American-firstism?"

Our Constitution does not allow us to be the worlds police force.
The Constitution is controled anarchy, just barely, as was the intent of our Founders.

You don't have a soul, you are a soul. You have a body.C.S. Lewis

Statutum tempus Lex of Deus est a Donum. Donum attero nisi a speculum of lex of Deus, in terra
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Re: An Obama chronology

Postby Texas Lynn » March 14th, 2011, 10:35 pm

Intelligent Design wrote:Other then trade what's wrong with "isolationism and American-firstism?"

Our Constitution does not allow us to be the worlds police force.


and yet for some reason we have been for 60 years.
You may not use me as your factory.
Priests and legislators do not hold
shares in my womb or my mind.
This is my body. If I give it to you
I want it back. My life
is a non-negotiable demand.

Marge Piercy
Texas Lynn
 
Posts: 13
Joined: February 9th, 2011, 1:26 pm
Location: Brooklyn NY

Re: An Obama chronology

Postby davehines » March 14th, 2011, 10:57 pm

Texas Lynn wrote:
Intelligent Design wrote:Other then trade what's wrong with "isolationism and American-firstism?"

Our Constitution does not allow us to be the worlds police force.


and yet for some reason we have been for 60 years.


That's one reason we're going bankrupt.

Aad it hasn't gone well. Kermit Roosevelt's intervention in Iran i stll causing us problems 58 years later. Policing Vietnam turned out to be a rout, also entailing support for the Khmer Rouge and its killing fields, since they were fighting the Vietnamese. The Korean War never ended. Despite all the talk of people hating us for our freedom, what they say is that they dislike us because we are international busybodies.

But if they hate us for our freedoms, you big-government liberals are determined to change that by eliminating as much liberty as you can get away with. And the GOP are happy to cooperate in that endeavor.

Funny, you say you hate the money-grubbing corporations, yet you support the endeavor that feeds the biggest of them to the tune of billions -- Boeing; GE; Raytheon; Sikorsky; Bell; Lockheed; Halliburton; Xe (formerly Blackwater); etc.
Last edited by davehines on March 14th, 2011, 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It is in the popularity of the pursuit of Utopia that the aggrandizers of state power find their most effective ally.

-- Dennis Wilson Brogan
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Re: An Obama chronology

Postby Intelligent Design » March 14th, 2011, 11:00 pm

Ya----what david said. :wink:
The Constitution is controled anarchy, just barely, as was the intent of our Founders.

You don't have a soul, you are a soul. You have a body.C.S. Lewis

Statutum tempus Lex of Deus est a Donum. Donum attero nisi a speculum of lex of Deus, in terra
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Re: An Obama chronology

Postby jzyehoshua » January 5th, 2014, 6:56 am

There's some key information omitted here surrounding Obama's corruption in his 1996 and 2004 elections. He knocked off all 4 opponents in 1996 using a team of lawyers so he could run unopposed, to destroy the democratic process.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2007 ... candidates

Obama also struck a deal with Emil Jones in 2003 to make him a U.S. Senator, following which Jones appointed him head of all major legislation in the IL State Senate, like the racial profiling bill originally worked on by Rickey Hendon. In 2004 the Chicago press then knocked out of the race both front-runner candidates leading Obama in the polls, Blair Hull and Jack Ryan, by forcing the unsealing of their divorce files. The Chicago Tribune even sued to unveil Ryan's files. As a result Obama's primary and general election opponents were defeated by the Illinois press.

http://www.houstonpress.com/2008-02-28/ ... med-at-me/
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/feat ... bama200803
I am extreme, no doubt about it, but am also willing to listen, to look, at dissenting opinions. The ones who are deaf and blind are those who plug their ears and cover their eyes. I may be strong in my beliefs, but hear out different viewpoints.
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