Matt C. Abbott
Catholic author, gay Catholic debate
By Matt C. Abbott
I recently received an e-mail from reader Jacob Clark, who was responding to my "Africa, AIDS, homosexuality, pedophilia" column. As I often like to do, I forwarded his e-mail to a few fellow assenting Catholics, one of whom was noted Catholic author James Likoudis.
The following is an interesting (edited) e-mail exchange between Mr. Clark and Mr. Likoudis.
Jacob Clark: I like to engage with those who feel differently than I do. I would say that the main difference is that I believe in an inclusive Church and the Church has very wide doors with massive opinions. You [James Likoudis] basically wrote that believing as I believe puts me in jeopardy of hell, where I believe room exists for all of us. I would never say your beliefs put you in danger of hell, for only God knows a man's or woman's heart. It is really very counter productive to continue on the very weary line of liberal vs. conservative.
Catholicism is very different depending on where you live. I live in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles where we have a very large and vibrant ministry to the GLBT (gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, transgender) community. It is not a ministry in which any parish or pastor is seeking to change or judge. It is simply a place for these men and women to come and share a common faith without fear of being judged, as so many of us have been most of our lives. Cardinal Mahony supports these groups.
However, Cardinal Francis George would never agree to such groups. It is just the difference between people. When I lived in Europe, I was blessed to be in attendance with Cardinal Martini. I just love his homilies. He stressed the importance of preaching the Gospel and never telling people what to do. He has always been an intelligent man whom I feel has been a progressive force within the Church. Progressive does not have to be a bad word to my more — shall we say conservative — Catholics, for lack of a better word.
I just really find some of the articles that Matt has written to be very unfair. As if anyone who even suggests that for people who are sexually active, it is better to wear a condom than to not do so, are somehow devoid of conscience and evil, is totally unfair. The truth is no sex is safe. I like the way my European friends put it: 'Safer sex,' not safe sex. However, it is better to offer sexually active people something than absolutely nothing. When condoms are used effectively, they do reduce the risk of transmitting STD's by up to 85%. That, my friend, is better than using nothing. Abstinence is best in an ideal world, but we do not live in that world. As far as gay sex goes, I believe that sex in a committed relationship is acceptable.
I do not believe when we arrive at Heaven the first thing God will say will be 'Who did you sleep with?' I believe it will be 'Did you clothe the naked, feed the poor, etc.' I just would ask that people who believe such as Matt and yourself would be more respectful toward us. We are not some evil force trying to destroy the Church. We feel we have ideas and thoughts and should be listened to. All people are welcome at God's table, regardless of their race, sexual orientation and so on.
(Jacob Clark can be reached at sanctisjude@hotmail.com.)
James Likoudis: Dear Jacob, thank you for your comments which helps me understand you better. May I make the following reply:
1) It is not a question of 'feelings.' It is a question of truth concerning the mystery of human sexuality to which the Catholic Church as the Teacher of Truth alone has the key. One either accepts the Church as the Teacher of Truth or one does not. If not, calling oneself a Catholic is false advertising.
2) Also, it is not a question of 'liberal' versus 'conservative.' That is to politicize a moral and religious issue which transcends such labels. The politicalization of doctrinal issues serves only to obscure the question of truth. Ditto for the label 'progressive.' There are genuine progressives and 'pseudo-progressives' and there is need for discernment. Dissenters like to hide behind the label and trying to pass themselves as 'enlightened Catholics,' but proceed to question the very credibility of the Church as the infallible Teacher in faith and morals.
3) The Catholic Church is indeed 'inclusive,' open to all, but it has a Creed which also contains moral teachings which must be believed by its believers. A Church which 'never tells people what to do' is no Church at all, and would certainly have surprised the Apostles who continually directed the faithful regarding the good works they must do and the evil behavior to be avoided.
Fornicators, adulterers, those committing incest, sodomites and those who seriously and deliberately violated the other commandments besides the sixth and ninth were declared mortal sinners and as gravely offending God and sinning against their neighbor. The Church is 'inclusive' in that all are called to Christian perfection; all are called to be Saints. No sins are unforgivable, and Christ instituted the Sacrament of Penance/Reconciliation so that sinners may once again be robed in Christ's sanctifying grace and enjoy the peace and joy of Christ.
4) It is not a question of either/or. It is rather both. Those who did not clothe the naked and those who slept with other homosexuals are equally condemned as unworthy of entrance into the Kingdom of God. All in the Catholic Church are invited to the banquet of God's Table, but they must wear the wedding garment of sanctifying grace to be admitted to the heavenly banquet of the Eucharist. Otherwise they commit sacrilege against the Body and Blood of Christ contained in the Blessed Sacrament given at Mass.
5) All of the above is quite elementary for Catholics. Where there are 'different Catholicisms' than what is insisted upon by the supreme teaching authority of the Church (the pope and the bishops in communion with him), one sees dissent in action. Dissent not merely from certain 'legalisms' of the Church but from the moral teachings of Christ Himself. It is the love of Christ which prompts the 'obedience of faith' to His Church's moral teachings. It is that obedience which preserves us in Christ's love and holiness.
6) Where Catholics are led astray by the 'spirit of the world, the flesh and the devil,' the Church calls them to conversion of heart and to obedience to God's law of love and life. Those addicted to homosexual practice have a particular cross to bear in attempting to break the chains of self-love and pride which keep them from being reconciled to God. It is from the Cross of Christ that all the graces of conversion stem. The books of Fr. John Harvey, the founder of Courage, would be especially helpful for those seeking to understand the Church's teachings regarding homosexuality and the Church's love for homosexuals, always beseeching the Immaculate Mother of God and the Saints for their conversion to Christ, the Lover of Mankind.
You will be in my prayers. The famous French writer Leon Bloy once said truly, 'There is but one sadness in life, namely not to be a saint.' May Our Lord give you the strength and courage to be a saint.
(James Likoudis is associated with Catholics United for the Faith, www.cuf.org.)
© Matt C. Abbott
I recently received an e-mail from reader Jacob Clark, who was responding to my "Africa, AIDS, homosexuality, pedophilia" column. As I often like to do, I forwarded his e-mail to a few fellow assenting Catholics, one of whom was noted Catholic author James Likoudis.
The following is an interesting (edited) e-mail exchange between Mr. Clark and Mr. Likoudis.
Jacob Clark: I like to engage with those who feel differently than I do. I would say that the main difference is that I believe in an inclusive Church and the Church has very wide doors with massive opinions. You [James Likoudis] basically wrote that believing as I believe puts me in jeopardy of hell, where I believe room exists for all of us. I would never say your beliefs put you in danger of hell, for only God knows a man's or woman's heart. It is really very counter productive to continue on the very weary line of liberal vs. conservative.
Catholicism is very different depending on where you live. I live in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles where we have a very large and vibrant ministry to the GLBT (gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, transgender) community. It is not a ministry in which any parish or pastor is seeking to change or judge. It is simply a place for these men and women to come and share a common faith without fear of being judged, as so many of us have been most of our lives. Cardinal Mahony supports these groups.
However, Cardinal Francis George would never agree to such groups. It is just the difference between people. When I lived in Europe, I was blessed to be in attendance with Cardinal Martini. I just love his homilies. He stressed the importance of preaching the Gospel and never telling people what to do. He has always been an intelligent man whom I feel has been a progressive force within the Church. Progressive does not have to be a bad word to my more — shall we say conservative — Catholics, for lack of a better word.
I just really find some of the articles that Matt has written to be very unfair. As if anyone who even suggests that for people who are sexually active, it is better to wear a condom than to not do so, are somehow devoid of conscience and evil, is totally unfair. The truth is no sex is safe. I like the way my European friends put it: 'Safer sex,' not safe sex. However, it is better to offer sexually active people something than absolutely nothing. When condoms are used effectively, they do reduce the risk of transmitting STD's by up to 85%. That, my friend, is better than using nothing. Abstinence is best in an ideal world, but we do not live in that world. As far as gay sex goes, I believe that sex in a committed relationship is acceptable.
I do not believe when we arrive at Heaven the first thing God will say will be 'Who did you sleep with?' I believe it will be 'Did you clothe the naked, feed the poor, etc.' I just would ask that people who believe such as Matt and yourself would be more respectful toward us. We are not some evil force trying to destroy the Church. We feel we have ideas and thoughts and should be listened to. All people are welcome at God's table, regardless of their race, sexual orientation and so on.
(Jacob Clark can be reached at sanctisjude@hotmail.com.)
James Likoudis: Dear Jacob, thank you for your comments which helps me understand you better. May I make the following reply:
1) It is not a question of 'feelings.' It is a question of truth concerning the mystery of human sexuality to which the Catholic Church as the Teacher of Truth alone has the key. One either accepts the Church as the Teacher of Truth or one does not. If not, calling oneself a Catholic is false advertising.
2) Also, it is not a question of 'liberal' versus 'conservative.' That is to politicize a moral and religious issue which transcends such labels. The politicalization of doctrinal issues serves only to obscure the question of truth. Ditto for the label 'progressive.' There are genuine progressives and 'pseudo-progressives' and there is need for discernment. Dissenters like to hide behind the label and trying to pass themselves as 'enlightened Catholics,' but proceed to question the very credibility of the Church as the infallible Teacher in faith and morals.
3) The Catholic Church is indeed 'inclusive,' open to all, but it has a Creed which also contains moral teachings which must be believed by its believers. A Church which 'never tells people what to do' is no Church at all, and would certainly have surprised the Apostles who continually directed the faithful regarding the good works they must do and the evil behavior to be avoided.
Fornicators, adulterers, those committing incest, sodomites and those who seriously and deliberately violated the other commandments besides the sixth and ninth were declared mortal sinners and as gravely offending God and sinning against their neighbor. The Church is 'inclusive' in that all are called to Christian perfection; all are called to be Saints. No sins are unforgivable, and Christ instituted the Sacrament of Penance/Reconciliation so that sinners may once again be robed in Christ's sanctifying grace and enjoy the peace and joy of Christ.
4) It is not a question of either/or. It is rather both. Those who did not clothe the naked and those who slept with other homosexuals are equally condemned as unworthy of entrance into the Kingdom of God. All in the Catholic Church are invited to the banquet of God's Table, but they must wear the wedding garment of sanctifying grace to be admitted to the heavenly banquet of the Eucharist. Otherwise they commit sacrilege against the Body and Blood of Christ contained in the Blessed Sacrament given at Mass.
5) All of the above is quite elementary for Catholics. Where there are 'different Catholicisms' than what is insisted upon by the supreme teaching authority of the Church (the pope and the bishops in communion with him), one sees dissent in action. Dissent not merely from certain 'legalisms' of the Church but from the moral teachings of Christ Himself. It is the love of Christ which prompts the 'obedience of faith' to His Church's moral teachings. It is that obedience which preserves us in Christ's love and holiness.
6) Where Catholics are led astray by the 'spirit of the world, the flesh and the devil,' the Church calls them to conversion of heart and to obedience to God's law of love and life. Those addicted to homosexual practice have a particular cross to bear in attempting to break the chains of self-love and pride which keep them from being reconciled to God. It is from the Cross of Christ that all the graces of conversion stem. The books of Fr. John Harvey, the founder of Courage, would be especially helpful for those seeking to understand the Church's teachings regarding homosexuality and the Church's love for homosexuals, always beseeching the Immaculate Mother of God and the Saints for their conversion to Christ, the Lover of Mankind.
You will be in my prayers. The famous French writer Leon Bloy once said truly, 'There is but one sadness in life, namely not to be a saint.' May Our Lord give you the strength and courage to be a saint.
(James Likoudis is associated with Catholics United for the Faith, www.cuf.org.)
© Matt C. Abbott
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